The universal fandom taboo?

[apple_pathways]

Bashfic / Character bashing.

It's banned from nearly every fic exchange. It's against the rules in most communities. If you want to speak ill of a show or its characters, you're going to have to start your own comm dedicated specifically for that purpose. Fans are so scared of the ramifications for speaking negatively about a fandom's characters or canon, they retreat to memes where they can bitch about the things they don't like under the cover of anonymity. You'll see "character bashing" listed as a squick alongside cannibalism, incest, and noncon.

Why such a strong reaction?


Of course, despite the overall fandom agreement that character bashing is bad, people can and do bash. It seems like there's at least one dedicated basher in every circle or comm: that person who feels the need to rail against Character X every time their name is mentioned, even if it's only mentioned in passing. That sort of broken record bashing in pernicious and irritating, for sure: in a discussion about fans' enjoyment of Character X, it's grating to have to constantly bat away the vitriol and bile of one or two grudgetastic fans.

But what about the bashing that doesn't happen in the public view? The rants that people post to their own journals, or the fics they write that can be easily skipped if you don't like the writing? I've seen some fans insist character bashing is something they'd like to see warned for, but is that really necessary? After all, I doubt the people writing it admit to themselves that it's bash!fic: one fan's character assassination is another's creative interpretation, after all.

What has me perplexed is not that people dislike character bashing: I don't like to see my favorite characters trampled any more than the next fan. What astounds me is the general opinion (and correct me if I'm misinterpreting it) that character bashing shouldn't exist, or should somehow be contained in radioactive bunkers where it won't risk contaminating the rest of fandom. With all of the unusual/out-there/or edgy ideas that fandoms more or less embrace as a normal and healthy part of the fan experience, why is character bashing so universally loathed? Why does the general fandom rule of "Don't Like, Don't Read" not apply?

Right now, you might be thinking, "What is she going on about? If it's so universally loathed, then why do I see it everywhere?" I would put that down to "Bashing is in the eye of the beholder"; or, put simpler: you can't recognize your own stink. While talking about a character you don't like is simply a critical examination of the canon, the same discussion about your favorite character is bashing. While negative discussion of specific characters/canons/*cough*showrunners might be kosher in one comm, the members will generally agree that "character bashing" (as it pertains to the fandom darlings) is off-limits.

I understand the urge to identify, even overidentify, with the characters in a show. For me, it's part of that murky line that divides the shows/books/movies I enjoy, and those I am a fan of, and it's an enormous part of what makes fandom so enjoyable. I have, in my life, disliked fictional characters enough that the idea of writing a story that punishes them and highlights the aspects of their personality I dislike seems incredibly satisfying. I don't do it, because I make a conscious choice not to focus on the negatives of the canon; I get much more pleasure from the parts I do enjoy. However, I recognize that this is a line I draw for myself, and not a standard that need apply to everyone. You wanna bash? Go for it--I can scroll!


Nearly everyone can agree that the Negative Nellys who just can't resist the urge to slip in a snide remark everytime their least favorite character is mentioned are annoying. But what about the fans who need to "defend" a character's virtue everytime they detect a real or imagined slight? Some fans just cannot psychologically deal with people who disagree with them about how the canon should be interpreted, and the general fandom opinion seems to be that they shouldn't have to. And what I want to know is: why shouldn't they?

(Or am I totally off the mark, and most fans' negative view of character bashing attaches to the wank that it eventually stirs up and not the bashing itself?)

Comments

[ladylovelace.livejournal.com]

I think it goes along with a lot of things that only fandom would ever consider warning for (that is, basically everything: you read original fiction and it's a lucky dip, and yet I have never seen a nasty letter to the author telling them they're a horrible person for squicking/triggering/whathaveyou - and I think most people know that that would not be acceptable behaviour).

The reason I think this happens in fandom is that fandom is made up almost exclusively of people who really like the characters and want to hear more about them. So saying mean things about one of the characters makes you a Spoilsport McMeaniepants. And doing things that a number of individuals would disagree with to/with the characters makes you a selective leper.

That, and fandom is by and large batshit and lorded over (and the rules made) by people who have probably spent much of their lives with the character flaws that the character being bashed has - usually, an inflated sense of self-worth and very few actual talents (the Queens of fandom, after all, are rarely the ones producing great content - they're the ones curating it and/or making a great deal of sound and fury, signifying nothing).

I realise I sound overly critical at the moment, but this relates to research I've been doing myself about how the majority actually use the Internet. It is alarmingly disorganised and only proves to me that people do not read what's on the page in front of them. I am genuinely appalled at the majority of Internet users at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I love fandom and the sense of community etc. one gets from it - but it is a study in anthropology unto itself. It doesn't behave like any other society that has come before it, because of the way it's composed.

Ahem. Feel free to ignore my ranty Thoughts on Yaoi.

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

I would LOVE to hear more about your research! (You've see how much I love polls and statistics...) How are you conducting it? What's your population?

It is alarmingly disorganised and only proves to me that people do not read what's on the page in front of them.

I run into this a lot. It's an incredible barrier to discussion when people don't read and comprehend what the other people are saying!

It's just weird to me that the stigma against "bashing" is so great, people feel they can't be at all critical of the canon without bringing a shitstorm of wank down on their heads.

[tourdefierce.livejournal.com]

For me, it's the resulting wank.

See, I don't really hate any character. And it's always so hard to tell what's fucking characterization and what's "bashing". During fests, you have no way in knowing if your recipient loves/hates a character. I mean, just because I don't mention X character in my sign-up, doesn't mean I hate them. So, it's always a slippery slope and when a character I like get's totaled in a fic without a good reason, plot/characterization or whatever, I feel like it has no purpose. WRITING SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE PURPOSE.

If you want to rant about a character or fandom's characterization of a character, I just don't think it belongs in the open. That's what gchat was created for, I'm convinced. It's hard to bash characters that are technically fluid, yeah? I mean, I write a character in a completely different context than someone else.

So yeah, in general, it's just messy. And it cause wank that I honestly don't give a flying fuck about.

♥

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

WRITING SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE PURPOSE.

Oh man, spread the word, sister! :P There seems to be a few people who didn't get the note...

Yeah, I'm not impressed with wank and internet drama. I'm one of the few people who reads fail_fandomanon for the general comm chat and random "Who's your favorite character?" threads.

[rachel2205.livejournal.com]

Fandom is so weirdly oversensitive. Part of that is the dynamic of the people different fandoms attract. Many of the fandoms I've been involved in seem to, let's be blunt, attract women in their early 20s who get feverishly excited at the idea of men making out and incredibly upset at the idea of anyone disliking the characters they love because it's somehow a personal slight. Ah, reminds me of real life undergrad days. ;)

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

For real! Do these people not get enough drama in their own lives?

Though I do feel the need to point out that, unlike in life, on the internet it takes two to wank! ;) While it's easy to blame the people saying critical things about the canon for unpleasantness, it takes someone engaging them to brew up a wankstorm.

[rachel2205.livejournal.com]

For sure, and there's definitely a very immature element of fandom that seems to want to upset other people for no good reason.

I think most people commenting here, while making good points, aren't necessarily seeing what seems to be your main point - which I read as: is disagreement really character bashing? (Correct me if I'm wrong!) One problem I have with fandom is that criticising a character can often be read as bashing, and any time anyone wants to be critical they have to couch their post in all these disclaimers that if they were critiquing something non-fandomish for they wouldn't feel compelled to do. In fandom I have run across a LOT of fear of discord, to the point where people will bend over backwards to avoid saying anything that offends anyone ever.

Ha, this post totally makes me want to write that "why certain fanfiction is popular" post I've occasionally thought about, but I fear it might alienate people. Maybe I should just do it anyway. XD

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

(I love it when you break out the 'OMG DRAMA!' icon. ;)

what seems to be your main point - which I read as: is disagreement really character bashing?

That's definitely the gist of what I'm trying to say. I think fear of being lumped in with the outright jerks prevents a lot of people from expressing any sort of negative opinions within the fandom. A lot of fandom seems to be "Squee Only" which, while fun, is not always enough! At least not for me: I like to critically evaluate the things I enjoy.

But what I also wonder is where the overwhelming emotions surrounding characters and character-bashing come from. I understand that people can be jerks, and it's unpleasant to have something you love attacked; especially when the language of bashing can be so extreme and, well: ist! (Racist, misogynist, etc.) But it seems to me the reaction to the mere mention of character bashing is out of proportion to what you might logically expect. (I've always been like Spock in that sense: I put logic before emotions ALL THE TIME! :P)

(I really need a "this journal is a social experiment" tag.)

Ha, this post totally makes me want to write that "why certain fanfiction is popular" post I've occasionally thought about, but I fear it might alienate people. Maybe I should just do it anyway. XD

Honestly, I'd be extremely interested to read it! I've done a lot of thinking myself about what's popular and why, and I'd love to hear your theories. My God, if I haven't managed to alienate people yet (which, I don't think I have...) I think you could definitely give it a shot! :P

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

One of the commenters above said for them it's the resulting wank, and I agree.

I really don't care if someone doesn't like a character - and if they want to go ahead and say why, that's fine. I'll avoid it if I don't feel up to looking at it that day, or I'll read it as part of a critical discourse about that character's writing or whatever. My problem isn't the people who "bash" a character - it's when they hate that character so much that they cannot take someone responding politely (which, okay, the anti-bashers aren't at all always polite, but I'm going from the personal experience side here, and I always approach responses to character-hate with attempts at calm and reasonable conversation) and questioning their reasons for hating that character. And then it spirals out of control into hate wars, and that's the point where I say look, I get as serious about fandom and characters as the next person, but this is entertainment, and we all need to chill out.

It's when the hate moves from being directed at a fictional character to being directed at someone who disagrees with the basher's negative view of that character (or, at the basher) that I have a problem.

So in conclusion: I don't think you're off the mark. I think for plenty of people in fandom the problem IS the bashing itself. For me, and for a few other people I know, at least, it's the language of bashing (the slut-shaming, the ship-warring, etc) and the way it so quickly moves from any sort of forward-thinking discussion to an all out hate-fest. :(

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

Ah, see: slut-shaming! There's one of my hot buttons. It doesn't bother me so much that people dislike characters, but why they dislike them, which is generally why I avoid conversations where people are hating on characters, and especially female characters. Even if I myself really dislike the character they're talking about, I find myself wanting to jump in and defend her when people start breaking out the misogyny.

There's all kinds of discussion!fails on the internet. (It's why I'm glad to have such a sane, intelligent, and overall awesome flist to discuss things with!) I understand hating character bashing, especially for the wank it stirs up. But I was on another comm today where someone was talking about a fan "speaking out" against character bashing, and I thought: whuh? Is character bashing really something one must "speak out" against? I can see speaking out against the content of the bashing if its racist, misogynist, homophobic, etc: but character bashing in and of itself?

I'm just trying to understand where this comes from!

[tierfal.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I don't encounter all that much character-bashing, but that's in large part because I deliberately stay out of it. Are there characters I rant about? Sure. But I try to do it in person with people who don't give a crap and hear twice as much ranting about my mother anyway. The negativity of people online -- even when they bash characters I hate more than they do -- is just such an energy-suck for me that I eschew the whole thing whenever possible. I don't do fan discussions. I don't pick fights, even when I want to and feel that they'd be merited. It just isn't worth it to defend my favorites when they won't care anyway, because they don't exist.

That's the thing that appalls me about the whole concept, really, and it's why I usually contribute to fandom only inasmuch as I can do relatively neutrally. None of it is freaking real, man. If your burning hatred for Imaginary Personage A is so important to your life that you have to spew tirades all over the internet, you need some serious new priorities.

I guess I should 'fess up to the fact that I have been known to criticize/make fun of aspects of various canons (and, to some extent, characters) within fanfiction -- sometimes with parody, sometimes with in-jokes, sometimes in a slightly snide and unconstructive manner of the type I'm supposedly trying to denounce -- but I like to think there's a pretty substantial difference between addressing what you think is a bad character choice by the writer and telling someone that their favorite character is a whiny whore.

Don't even get me started on characters that only even GET bashed because of 'ship wars.

tl;dr I'm at work, my name is Tierfal, and I hate haters. XD

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

I like to think there's a pretty substantial difference between addressing what you think is a bad character choice by the writer and telling someone that their favorite character is a whiny whore.

I would agree with you here, but I've seen both circumstances described as "character bashing", which is what confuses me. I understand that some people don't like to critically evaluate the things they enjoy: that it somehow spoils things for them. But why they should get so worked up about other people doing it, I cannot understand...

[housemaid79.livejournal.com]

I actually do think that a lot of what bothers fans is the wank that gets stirred up.

Certainly not all, but much of the complaining I see over character-bashing relates to the fact that it divides fandom. Honestly, what I probably see people get the most upset over is when the character-bashing mutates into bashing the fans who hold a different opinion. I imagine you know the type: they don't just think character X is evil, they think you're evil for liking character X.

As for myself, when it comes to fandom, I figure that I can be a grown up and just avoid reading things that I know would bother me. *sigh* Why can't we all just get along...

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

As for myself, when it comes to fandom, I figure that I can be a grown up and just avoid reading things that I know would bother me.

I know, exactly! I feel like making a banner for all my comms: "You are in charge of your own fandom experience!"

[roh-wyn.livejournal.com]

Fascinating post and comments.

Interestingly, I've been having a discussion about character bashing elsewhere, on a fandom-specific board, and the consensus there was character bashing was a big faux pas primarily because there are better ways to get across the fact that a particular character was not subjectively worthy of the writer's affection.

My view is that if fanfiction is commentary on the source material--meta, if you will--then character bashing (or the flipside, i.e. character praising) is a subset of that. Instead of commenting on the entire fannish universe, the commentary is limited to that single character. I don't see it as having less value (or more value, for that matter) than fics that are friendly to that character.

As for warnings, I feel like you can never warn too much. I mean, granted, you shouldn't have to warn for some things, i.e. same-sex relationships, political viewpoints, etc. But on the other hand, one writer's neat expository device is another writer's horrible trigger.

And yes, of course, we all have the ability to scroll past what we don't like. But there are things that I can't even be bothered to click on, and knowing that up front saves me time. Does that make sense?

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

That makes sense to me! It's not so much that I don't see the point of warning for character bashing (or think it's a bad idea), but that I don't know that you could trust people to police their own bashing, you know? There's a writer in fandom that people are always complaining about who writes very unflattering and (most agree) OOC versions of certain characters. The thing is, I don't think she seems them that way: she views it as an "exploration of their dark side" or some such thing. It would be great to get a warning up front to let you know what you're getting in one of her fics, but I don't think she's self-aware enough to provide it.

I suppose I would agree that you "can't warn too much", unless you're giving away key elements of the plot. (Which has happened to me: "If I warn for this, that gives away the whole ending to my story!") However, I think the expectations of what should be warned for are problematic. The notion that you can identify and warn for everything that might conceivably upset someone is just impossible and fallacious. You can't! Trust me: I am a person with very strange, and very specific squicks. If I could get people to warn for anthropomorphism, I would! :P

Of course, a line has to be drawn about what should and shouldn't be warned for. Most people can agree that rape, violence, suicide, etc. should be warned for, but character bashing? I once saw the Who anon meme get all up in arms and cry "character bashing" because an author did not mention a character they knew she disliked! If not mentioning a character can be called bashing, how could a protocol for warning for it be devised?

[ravelled-ribbon.livejournal.com]

That is totally ridiculour and it sounds like they were the sort of person who thinks their favorite charactor should be the centre of everyones experience and shouts bashing like some people shout you're being mean to me if they aren't the centre of attention.

Thing is she can't warn bashing or OOC because she doesn't think they are but she can warn dark!Sirius or whatever, because people do warn for that.

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

The fandom in question (in that example) was Torchwood. I don't watch the show, but it's a Who-related fandom, so there is some overlap. When people on the anon meme started bitching about how "She didn't even mention Ianto!" I was all o_0?! As a notorious basher of the character, I would have thought they'd be happy she kept his name out of it.

Anyway. I think being courteous to your fellow fans should be a given. If there's something in your fic that's likely to upset people, it's a nice thing to do to warn for it. However, the people who write the sort of character-bashing you're talking about probably aren't likely to warn for it.

[katyscarlett76.livejournal.com]

I think for me it is a lot to do with the wank it creates and not the bashing itself, just because I have a completely different opinion of the characters to you doesn't make either of us right or wrong and there's no need to get personal about it.

Having said that there is a tendency within certain circles to think that they have to bash one half of the canon relationship to make their preferred ship work and I don't think there's any need for that either. Example in Harry Potter I'm a big Remus/Tonks shipper and have found there is a tendency for some Remus/Sirius shippers to make Tonks into some bitch whore who stole him away from Sirius' memory or something and I hate that. I have been known to read and enjoy some Remus/Sirius on occasion but if they get bitchy about my girl then I hate it and yes I would like a warning if they're going to do that because I don't want to waste my time reading that fic when there's others that don't.

But I guess what I don't do is leave a bitchy comment on the fic about that, I just, you know, press the back button and read something else. I was always taught if you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all and I think some people think the anonymity of the internet means they don't have be nice.

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

I think part of the desire to have warnings for things like character-bashing, OOC, AUs, etc. on fic is due to the tedious process that is slogging through fics to read. I know personally, that out of every five fics I click on, I'll probably only read one or two to the end. (And that isn't counting the dozens I simply scroll past because their characters/summaries don't interest me!) When you spend that much time sifting through material to read, naturally it'd be nice to have a better indication of what you're going to enjoy before you invest any time in reading it.

Of course, as I've said in other replies, the trouble is with having authors honestly identify the bashing in their fics, which is something I just can't see happening!

[ladybracknell.livejournal.com]

For me it's just a general sense of bafflement that people want to spend their time getting angry and hating things.

Maybe I'm just a great big hippie, but I can't actually think of any characters in my current fandom I dislike. There are plenty that don't interest me, but instead of dwelling on why I just...spend my time on the ones I do like. Because that seems logical and... fun. So when I run up against people in general discussion who are really, really invested and capslocky with rage about a certain character I just kind of go '...ok' and leave them to it. I'm just not interested in having that discussion - and if they want to hate on my favourite, I don't care. I'm happy to leave those people to it and assume it must be bringing them some kind of pleaseure - but in general I prefer to be around people who say, 'I really didn't get her motivation for that decision' than 'THAT BITCH IS SO STUPID I CAN'T EVEN...', because, you know, fandom is the place I come to for fun and other people's rage isn't part of my definition of fun.

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

The content of bashing is often incredibly problematic to me. I hate the misogyny that's leveled at female characters, for example. (In fact, that's usually the easiest way to bait me into an argument: and I am not easily baited!)

While I would definitely choose to not be around people who are being bitchy and unkind, it doesn't particularly bother me that that's what some people want to do. I don't feel the need to barge into the middle of their unpleasantness and declare their dicussion off-limits. (Unless it is off-limits due to a stated rule. Even still, I'd probably let someone in an official capacity handle it.) So often, it's just fuel to the fire.

What really baffles me are the fans who are so sensitive they'll call "bashing" over the mildest of criticisms. I know a lot of people tend to love things with their whole heart: to them, the canon they love is as close to perfection as you can get. If they can see any flaws, they don't like to think about them, as it spoils the experience.

I'm not that way. I like to critically analyze everything: especially things I enjoy. For me, something doesn't have to be perfect to be fantastic. I enjoy discussing elements of a show/character I dislike just as much as the things I like. And I have had people get upset before, because I dared to say something negative about our fandom's canon. To me, though, it's all part of enjoying it!

[ravelled-ribbon.livejournal.com]

I would like people to warn for bashing in fics because I want to know if its in there so I can avoid reading it. Not because I think its oh so terrible but because I have no desire to read it. Its different with origonal fiction because you generally read origonal fiction and fanfiction for different reasons. For one thing, unless already in a series, you don't know the charactors and so don't have a pre-existing emotional relationship with them. And if it is a series and you do, then whatever the author does is canon and you have to accept that. They aren't doing it out of malice directed at a fictional charactor, they don't want to start internet drama and
if you think they have lost track of what they're doing and its no longer fun you stop reading.

I read fanfiction because I love the charactors and want to read more about them having run out of official matierials. Its about self gratification. This is why a lot of people do it and they don't want to have to get involved with charactor bashing because it isn't fun for them and they have enough serious unpleasent stuff going on in their real lives that they don't want to get involved ith something that will spoil their fun in their down time. I don't want to read a Gundam Wing fic say, only to discover halfway through that the author has made Trowa the bad guy in a way that is totally out of charactor because they virulently hate Trowa and want to write a charactor assasination. Because I won't enjoy it at all and then I have lost half my hour of free alone time for the evening.

I don't think its bad, I think if you don't like it don't read but that in order to be able to do that you need to be warned its in there in the first place. I also really hate it when other people push their charactor bashing on other people because, again, it spoiled their fun.

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you about what people get out of fanfiction vs. what they get out of original fiction. I'm in the same boat as you! I'm here for fun, and I don't need petty squabbles about fictional characters casting a shadow over my already-complicated life.

I would approve of people warning for character bashing, because I don't particularly want to read it, either. I think the problem is expecting authors to be able to identify the bashing in their fics, especially if they don't consider it bashing. What if the Gundam Wing author in your example wrote that same story, but this time it wasn't because virulently hate Trowa and want to assassinate their character, but because they like bad guys; or they wanted to write an AU; or they wanted to explore the character's "dark side". You would dislike the story just as much, but in that case, the author didn't mean any harm. (And how are you to know what an author's thinking when they write something?)

Anyway, food for thought! I'd like fandom to be a more positive place in general, but in the meantime, I'll just keep scrolling on by the wank.

[ravelled-ribbon.livejournal.com]

Actually no I wouldn't. There's an entire community dedicated to Trowa dark fic, where he's written as a bad guy or an asshole etc and its quite a lot of fun. (Just keeping the Trowa example going here) But in it they warn what kind of dark side they're giving the guy and you can skip portrayels you won't like. Similarly in an AU if you're writing a charactor our of charactor you notice, and so you can warn for it. I once read one where Wu Fei was written as a thug and a rapist and it was an ok fic and I still enjoyed it because it came with the warning. And there was another one where Heero was a closeted homosexual engaged in a public relationship with Relena and a seriously abusive private one with Duo. But it worked because it was a plausible charactor developement and wasn't just set up to destroy the charactor. Plus with bashing it feels different. Because a fic set up to bash a character revolves around making that charactor look like shit, or even if it doesn't all the interactions with that charactor are set up that way. And that's no fun.

[jacknjill270.livejournal.com]

I think there’s a difference between character bashing and just plain old criticism, but some people love the character so much they can’t see the difference – any criticism is like a personal attack on what they love. IMO the difference is in their reasons for disliking a character, or how they present those reasons, anyway. For example Amy from Doctor Who – OMG SHE’S SUCH A SLUT I CAN’T EVEN would be character bashing, but if someone said “I don’t like Amy’s characterization here because she forced herself on the Doctor on the night before her wedding to Rory” I would consider that a criticism but not bashing (And ahhh how much do I hate slutshaming, nothing gets me up in arms faster. ANYWAY).

Besides all the CAPSLOCK OF RAGE AND RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION, most of the character bashers that I’ve come across seem to be selective about the canon that they use to support their hate, if they actually have a logical reason at all.

I think a lot of the reason why people are so against bashing is because of what you already said – when we join a fandom, it’s because we love the canon and its characters (“Come for the squee and stay for the porn,” lol). When we love something, we want others to love it, too. We want to talk to others about what we love about it. What we don’t want is people coming in and saying that not only what we love is bad and wrong and evil, but we are too for liking it.

However I actually enjoy reading criticism, even for characters/show/showrunners that I love, because for the most part I can stay objective enough to recognize that even though I love it, it isn’t perfect. I like critically analyzing things I love just as much as things I don’t – more so, even.

TL;DR: criticism =/= character bashing, but haters gonna hate.

(BTW I love this post and all the comments – it’s nice to know that some people in fandom can have a reasonable, articulate discussion! )