POLL: Spot the homophobia!

[apple_pathways]

Once again, it's time to play: "What Would YOU Do?", the fantastic play-at-home webgame wherein I ask you, dear flist, to make my life choices for me.

No, I'm kidding! But I do want opinions.

I just discovered the "legacy story stats" feature at fanfiction.net, because I am WAY on top of things. (Seriously, I don't know who designed their user interface and whether or not they have a deep-seated hatred for humanity, but DAMN is it hard to navigate when you want to post a story!) This feature lets you see which communities and collections your works have been added to.

Two of my Sherlock stories have been added to a community called "Non-Slashers Unite!" which is described thusly: (copy and pasted from the comm's description)

For those of you who don't like to read slash stories then I have a place for you! NSU is your place to find all stories that a) aren't slash, b) don't have really strong/prolific language, c) any sort of explicit sex scenes—m/m, f/f, m/f—, and d) some pretty awesome Sherlock fics! If any of a-c start to appear then it will be taken off and if you awesome readers find something we missed please let us know! If you don't want your stories put into NSU then please let us know and we will remove them! Thanks!

I have thoughts:

a. I do not remember being solicited to "unite" with anyone, and am disturbed to discover I have been "united" with this community for about five months. (They added my stories back in February.)

b. I am rather offended and also discouraged to find my stories are considered to be devoid of "prolific language". Hey buddy: my stories contain hundreds, if not thousands of words! Some of them three syllables even...

c. Is this homophobia at work?

Now, before I ask for your opinions, I would mention:

I don't find the idea of excluding slash (and only slash) from an archive to be necessarily homophobic, in and of itself. For me, it has more to do with the reason slash is excluded and the attitude that accompanies the exclusion.

I can also sympathize with the comm's desire for PG fare without explicit sex or language. (Though Mrs. Hudson does call Moriarty a "son of a bitch" in one of my stories.)

As far as I can see, this comm has not made any explicit judgment of slash, LGBTQ persons or relationships--they've simply stated "this is an archive for all that is not-slash". HOWEVER, if they are operating under the pretense that slash is "gross" or "wrong" or are projecting any implications other than "it's just not my personal preference", I do not want any part of it.

With all that in mind, what do you think?

[Poll #1762536]

Any issues you want to raise, feel free to bring them up in comments. I'm especially interested to hear what people make of the general tone of this comm.

I tend to write mostly gen in the Sherlock fandom, with the odd bit of Molly/Moriarty thrown in. My stories are generally appreciated, but then I do also get a few Weirdos who think that because I write Sherlock and John as platonic friends I'm somehow morally opposed to the idea of them fucking. I'm not: I'm just not particuarly interested in reading or writing about it. I don't consider myself a Non-Slasher, but rather someone who tends to prefer other types of fic ahead of most slash fics. (The balance is rapidly shifting as regards Eleven/Rory though. But that's a whole 'nother fandom...)

Comments

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

I am (personally) ok with excluding slash fiction for a couple of reasons:

1. Slash does not (necessarily) equal gay fiction or real gay people. It can, most definitely, but not always. One of the main reasons I'm not a fan of most slash fic is the way a lot (not all, and by no means even most) of it fetishizes and others gay people. There is some slash fiction that is the fandom equivalent of "lesbian" pornos made for and by straight men.

2. Het-only comms do not necessarily exclude gay people, as I think lesbian, gay, and bisexual readers are just as capable of reading and enjoying m/f pairings as heterosexual readers. This is where the environment of the comm itself, and whether the tone is welcoming of LGB people, is most important in my distinction between "OK" and "Not OK."

Now, the biggest criticism I can see of my own arguments is that they're too sterile and detached, and not taking into account the way most people would view a het-only comm. The tone of fandom and het vs. slash debates as they exist in the real world will necessarily color any and all attempts to single out slash fiction from its het counterparts.

Full disclosure: I co-mod a het-only comm for Sherlock, sherlockhet. (I don't mention it to be all "but I have a het comm, and I'm not a bigot!" I welcome any and all criticism of my involvement with that comm.) We set it up because I was lamenting the difficulties of finding an audience for my Molly/Moriarty stories, and also having trouble finding that pairing elsewhere. I asked, jokingly, "What's a het fan like me doing in such a slashy fandom?"

We set up sherlockhet mostly as a rare pairs comm. With no female leads and a juggernaut ship like Sherlock/John, basically any het pairing in the fandom is de facto a "rare pair". We don't exclude slash from the comm: we just ask that each story feature at least one m/f pairing.

Now, could we have set it up differently? Made it a "women of Sherlock" comm, or a an actual "Sherlock Rare Pairs" comm? We probably could have.

In any case, it gives me something to think about!

[ladylovelace.livejournal.com]

I (naturally) respect your arguments, and I did know that you co-mod a het comm - and I don't think it was your intention, personally, to do what I'm suggesting het-only comms do. Like I say: the problem isn't in individual comms. It's in that they exist as a culture.

The problem I see is that it's really hard to separate fictional characters as not relevant to real social issues. Fictional characters are heroes and role models. And it's not just a case of excluding gay characters, either - it's excluding gay relationships - because that's where the real issue is. Nobody gives a crap whether you're gay or not until you're holding hands with someone of the same gender in public. The problem with het-only is that it validates one kind of relationship while inherently invalidating another. It is basically saying 'you're not allowed to hold hands in public'.

What I don't think is that you (general you) get to separate fandom from real life - this is real life, it's just a fiction-centric part of it. Views are unlikely to change from fandom to the real world, and if it's okay to say 'no gay relationships' online in one place, surely it's okay to say it in other places? Or offline? Is it okay to exclude gay people from your pub because you're not interested in seeing them together?

I agree that a lot of slash fiction does other real gay people. But just as much of it doesn't. Just as there are genuinely some really horrible people who happen to be Muslims out there (just as there are of every other religion ever, plus atheists), but not all Muslims are bad and banning them from certain places would be bad.

I know that you're not a bigot. And I know that I am approaching this from a different angle than you would, but it comes down for me to this: if someone started a no Muslims allowed comm, how would you react? What if the comm was okay with you being a Muslim as long as you don't take prayer breaks? Which is the more offensive, here?

For the record, I don't particularly like slash-only comms either, but like women's-only clubs, I put up with them because trying to argue against them only leaves me covered in 'but "they" discriminate against us!' goo. Which is sticky and smells awful.

Again, it's not you, personally. You followed your nose to a solution that makes perfect sense when it's isolated from the rest of society. But it's part of an unpleasant paradigm (again, I know it's not intentional) that is doing harm to the general, overall attitude about sexuality on a platform which is generally pretty socially aware - you've seen a part of this kind of thing that is making you question it, and there are het-comms that take it a great deal further than the one you pointed to in your original post.

Full disclosure to anyone watching who doesn't know me: I am both bisexual and an author of gay fiction (and a bit of a gay rights activist, in all honesty, so I do have a horse in this race, too, as it were).

(This is totally a blog post and with your permission, I would like to discuss this on my author blog [on your terms, naturally])

P.S. Don't mind the hysterical icon, I just haven't had a chance to dust it off lately.

[apple-pathways.livejournal.com]

The problem I see is that it's really hard to separate fictional characters as not relevant to real social issues.

I completely agree with you here, and I would never suggest that because something is fictional, it's not relevant to real social issues. I just have a distinction built up in my head between 'gay fiction' and 'slash fiction' as a genre. I have my own personal definitions for each, but I realize they aren't shared by everyone. (Anyone?) I bring it up only as a non-homophobic reason to dislike/want to exclude slash fiction. (Does it justify the exclusion? I'm starting to think not.)

I know that you're not a bigot.

And I know that your disagreeing with me and criticizing my arguments does not mean you think I am. So: no worries there!

I don't think the comparison between slash fiction and Muslim people is a fair one: prejudging a type of fanfiction is not analagous to prejudging people, for any reason. If it were really popular for people who weren't Muslim, and possibly had very little experience with real Muslims, to write fiction about being Muslim in a way that often fetishized Muslim culture: wouldn't you have objections and be tempted to avoid that genre?

Of course, you would argue: what about the stories that were written by Muslims? Or the ones that were written by non-Muslims in a way that was respectful and fairly true to the authentic experience? Is it right to exclude everything just because a lot of it gets it wrong?

No, I don't really think so. Because I do see your larger point: that people will transport (real or perceived) attitudes from one area of life to another.

I am not (philosophically) opposed to slash-only, het-only, gen-only, trans-only, kink-only, poly-only or ANY-only archives. People like what they like, and it is possible to dislike reading about something without being prejudiced toward that thing in your real life.

However, I do think I am taking a stance that is far too philosophical. (I do that a lot. I'm a very logical person and completely able to compartmentalize my feelings about different issues. I forget that most people don't do that.) Even operating under the best of intentions, a culture of exclusion does exist, and to ignore that and the way it would color perceptions of a het-only comm is naive at best. (I need to remind myself more often that the shades of nuance I perceive in my head aren't visible to onlookers.)

(This is totally a blog post and with your permission, I would like to discuss this on my author blog [on your terms, naturally])

You don't need my permission to make a blog post! Blog away. :D (What sort of terms do I get to set? Can I demand that you discuss the issue in blank verse?)