apple_pathways | POLL: Spot the homophobia!

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POLL: Spot the homophobia!

Once again, it's time to play: "What Would YOU Do?", the fantastic play-at-home webgame wherein I ask you, dear flist, to make my life choices for me.

No, I'm kidding! But I do want opinions.

I just discovered the "legacy story stats" feature at fanfiction.net, because I am WAY on top of things. (Seriously, I don't know who designed their user interface and whether or not they have a deep-seated hatred for humanity, but DAMN is it hard to navigate when you want to post a story!) This feature lets you see which communities and collections your works have been added to.

Two of my Sherlock stories have been added to a community called "Non-Slashers Unite!" which is described thusly: (copy and pasted from the comm's description)

For those of you who don't like to read slash stories then I have a place for you! NSU is your place to find all stories that a) aren't slash, b) don't have really strong/prolific language, c) any sort of explicit sex scenes—m/m, f/f, m/f—, and d) some pretty awesome Sherlock fics! If any of a-c start to appear then it will be taken off and if you awesome readers find something we missed please let us know! If you don't want your stories put into NSU then please let us know and we will remove them! Thanks!

I have thoughts:

a. I do not remember being solicited to "unite" with anyone, and am disturbed to discover I have been "united" with this community for about five months. (They added my stories back in February.)

b. I am rather offended and also discouraged to find my stories are considered to be devoid of "prolific language". Hey buddy: my stories contain hundreds, if not thousands of words! Some of them three syllables even...

c. Is this homophobia at work?

Now, before I ask for your opinions, I would mention:

I don't find the idea of excluding slash (and only slash) from an archive to be necessarily homophobic, in and of itself. For me, it has more to do with the reason slash is excluded and the attitude that accompanies the exclusion.

I can also sympathize with the comm's desire for PG fare without explicit sex or language. (Though Mrs. Hudson does call Moriarty a "son of a bitch" in one of my stories.)

As far as I can see, this comm has not made any explicit judgment of slash, LGBTQ persons or relationships--they've simply stated "this is an archive for all that is not-slash". HOWEVER, if they are operating under the pretense that slash is "gross" or "wrong" or are projecting any implications other than "it's just not my personal preference", I do not want any part of it.

With all that in mind, what do you think?

[Poll #1762536]

Any issues you want to raise, feel free to bring them up in comments. I'm especially interested to hear what people make of the general tone of this comm.

I tend to write mostly gen in the Sherlock fandom, with the odd bit of Molly/Moriarty thrown in. My stories are generally appreciated, but then I do also get a few Weirdos who think that because I write Sherlock and John as platonic friends I'm somehow morally opposed to the idea of them fucking. I'm not: I'm just not particuarly interested in reading or writing about it. I don't consider myself a Non-Slasher, but rather someone who tends to prefer other types of fic ahead of most slash fics. (The balance is rapidly shifting as regards Eleven/Rory though. But that's a whole 'nother fandom...)

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Ok, so whatever points they may have won by flattering my ego (I wrote a "pretty awesome Sherlock fic"!) they have now lost with my discovery of this story summary posted to the archive:

Sherlock got drunk- twin daughters are the result. Can John cope with feelings for their father and motherly feelings towards the twins?

I just...I can't...brain...

Here's an excerpt:

"Well…" Sherlock squirmed in his seat "About….a year ago my brother Mycroft… he had a big party…with lots of alcohol….and according to this letter and the baby's obvious similarities to me….. I slept with a young lady name Louise…. Who apparently doesn't want them…. So she left them to me to look after." John rolled his eyes – trust Sherlock to get a girl pregnant the only time he ever drinks.

Discuss?

I don't read or write Sherlock fic, and although I loved the series when it aired and eagerly await the new episodes, I don't consider myself a part of the fandom in the way I'm a part of the Who fandom.

I understand the non-slash preferences; I would have no problem with the slash being canon, nor do I have issues with the fandom writing slash, but it's not everyone's bag.

That said, IF the non-slash policy is there for homophobic reasons, then no, not cool. If it's just somewhere for people who prefer het/friendship fics to read stuff without wading through a ton of other fics not to their taste, then yes, it's valid.

But, I think the biggest issue here is that they added your story without asking/telling you first; they made assumptions about you as an author, and your writing choices, and that needs to be addressed I feel.

they made assumptions about you as an author, and your writing choices, and that needs to be addressed I feel.

I do think that's what bothers me the most. I know it's the norm at ff.net to include stories in collections without notifying the author, but in this case, I believe placing my story in that particular archive says things about me as an author that I'd rather not be associated with.

So this sort of thing happens at least twice a month in the Lord of the Rings fandom, or at least it used to, when the fandom was a bit busier.

Non-slash archives or comms were perceived to be per se homophobic, which (IMO) was a really unfair assessment. In many cases, the desire to keep slash off the archive was motivated not by homophobia, but by a desire to focus on het relationships that the archive owners liked, and that were being (in their view) drowned out by the massive quantities of slash fic at other archives.

So my approach would be to (a) ask, and (b) if asking reveals a possibly homophobic reason for the exclusion of slash, then dissociate yourself.

You may want to dissociate yourself from the archive anyway, if the snippet you posted above is anything to go by, lol.

Yeah, it's an issue I've seen crop up many times before. I don't think they should automatically be excluded per se, but they do often represent de facto homophobia, which: DNW!

You may want to dissociate yourself from the archive anyway, if the snippet you posted above is anything to go by, lol.

No kidding! I only skimmed the first chapter (of a dozen or so!) and it was abysmal. My brain cannot even process the first sentence of that summary:

Sherlock got drunk- twin daughters are the result.

I mean: really?!

I just can't even fathom the plot of such a story. I mean, even if the writing were absolutely brilliant, my brain would break reading that.

Accidental pregnancy is very popular across fandoms though. I can see its utility in certain contexts...maybe something like bringing some irresponsible cad-type character to heel, but Sherlock. Eh, not seeing it.

I'm hoping they're not so problematic as they sound; maybe they just suck at advertising what sort of lj comm they are? If not, yeah, I say it's time to find a way to dissociate your fic from them.

I think I'm gonna disassociate anyway, but yeah: they should like naive teenagers to me!

As someone who likes slash, femslash, and het, I don't really see a problem with 'het only' or 'slash only' comms. But to define themselves by what they don't like, i.e. 'non-slashers' versus, say, 'genfics only' or 'het-shippers', seems as if they are going out of their way to be actively anti-slash. I wouldn't want to associate with them, but I wouldn't necessarily judge anyone who did based on that summary.

Plus, they didn't ask you if you wanted to join, and that just seems kind of rude that they couldn't be bothered to ask you if you wanted your fic included in the first place.

But that's just me. It's your fic, and you should do what makes you happy :) Fanfic should not cause stress, lol.

That did strike me, as well: the emphasis on the negative. "NON-Slash" just automatically sounds bad.

I don't want to be associated with this hot mess, whatever their intentions! It would most definitely make me happy to not be involved with this hot mess!

I'm not sure I understand exactly how the archive is homophobic. I think the thing that's tweaking everyone might that it's named for what it excludes, rather than just calling itself a genfic archive. (And it's full of badfic, but it's on ff.net and is probably run by a 13-year-old...) I mean, it sounds like it was set up by a 13-year-old. I remember enthusiastically pitting myself against fandom forces that I thought were boring in my early teens, and that included all shippy fic for a very long time. It didn't mean I was afraid of it (though most kids don't make the distinction)... I just didn't like it (and I thought everyone was missing out on all the good plotty fic, because I completely didn't understand what appeal there was in reading just about two people sexing each other. I thought people were reading it because it was all everyone kept posting. ~~Let's not go into exactly how long ago this was...~~).

I can see how it'd be embarrassing to be associated with them (and I'm with you on those grounds), but going by the introduction there, it just states (with enthusiasm but no particular eloquence) that it's for people that don't want to read slash or explicit stories... it doesn't say anything specifically against those types of stories. In fact, it makes more sense if you read "slash" as meaning explicit fic in general... which is a definition I don't think anyone ever used, other than me when I was young and confused. But it's possible this person is also young and confused.

I think the argument centers around whether or not choosing to exclude slash and only slash is always de facto discrimination. I've already said I don't find it to be to discrimination per se, but the argument that it ends up being (or at least appearing) homophobic in practice is one I'm being swayed towards.

I could be easily convinced that the archivists are just young, naive, and interested in PG-rated gen fics. (However, they have not explicitly banned PG-rated het fics, which might be an oversight on their parts.) But even if that is their aim, I do think they're presenting themselves rather badly. I'm not willing to write them off as bigots, but I do think a gentle education as to why their archive is coming across as offensive might be in order.

I'm not sure I can see how the reason matters.

Remember how we were discussing m/m sex getting a higher heat rating with a publisher just by virtue of being m/m? That seems like another case of this, really. Which to me is perhaps not homophobic, within the exact meaning of the word, but it is definitely bad for real gay people, and tends to betray an attitude that gay people are strange aliens.

I'm about as okay with het-only comms as I am with restaurants who won't serve black people, honestly. I am fine with people liking het and having no interest in slash/a particular slash pairing, I just think it's a bad thing to make it socially okay to exclude gay people. (I don't think all het-only comms do this, but I think the culture of het-only comms does it. It is exactly like saying gay people aren't welcome here, even if it comes from a place of disinterest).

Actually, now I'm starting to get annoyed with the words het and slash. Can't we just call it sex? Is the built-in equipment that important?

I am (personally) ok with excluding slash fiction for a couple of reasons:

1. Slash does not (necessarily) equal gay fiction or real gay people. It can, most definitely, but not always. One of the main reasons I'm not a fan of most slash fic is the way a lot (not all, and by no means even most) of it fetishizes and others gay people. There is some slash fiction that is the fandom equivalent of "lesbian" pornos made for and by straight men.

2. Het-only comms do not necessarily exclude gay people, as I think lesbian, gay, and bisexual readers are just as capable of reading and enjoying m/f pairings as heterosexual readers. This is where the environment of the comm itself, and whether the tone is welcoming of LGB people, is most important in my distinction between "OK" and "Not OK."

Now, the biggest criticism I can see of my own arguments is that they're too sterile and detached, and not taking into account the way most people would view a het-only comm. The tone of fandom and het vs. slash debates as they exist in the real world will necessarily color any and all attempts to single out slash fiction from its het counterparts.

Full disclosure: I co-mod a het-only comm for Sherlock,

sherlockhet. (I don't mention it to be all "but I have a het comm, and I'm not a bigot!" I welcome any and all criticism of my involvement with that comm.) We set it up because I was lamenting the difficulties of finding an audience for my Molly/Moriarty stories, and also having trouble finding that pairing elsewhere. I asked, jokingly, "What's a het fan like me doing in such a slashy fandom?"

We set up

sherlockhet mostly as a rare pairs comm. With no female leads and a juggernaut ship like Sherlock/John, basically any het pairing in the fandom is de facto a "rare pair". We don't exclude slash from the comm: we just ask that each story feature at least one m/f pairing.

Now, could we have set it up differently? Made it a "women of Sherlock" comm, or a an actual "Sherlock Rare Pairs" comm? We probably could have.

In any case, it gives me something to think about!

I (naturally) respect your arguments, and I did know that you co-mod a het comm - and I don't think it was your intention, personally, to do what I'm suggesting het-only comms do. Like I say: the problem isn't in individual comms. It's in that they exist as a culture.

The problem I see is that it's really hard to separate fictional characters as not relevant to real social issues. Fictional characters are heroes and role models. And it's not just a case of excluding gay characters, either - it's excluding gay relationships - because that's where the real issue is. Nobody gives a crap whether you're gay or not until you're holding hands with someone of the same gender in public. The problem with het-only is that it validates one kind of relationship while inherently invalidating another. It is basically saying 'you're not allowed to hold hands in public'.

What I don't think is that you (general you) get to separate fandom from real life - this is real life, it's just a fiction-centric part of it. Views are unlikely to change from fandom to the real world, and if it's okay to say 'no gay relationships' online in one place, surely it's okay to say it in other places? Or offline? Is it okay to exclude gay people from your pub because you're not interested in seeing them together?

I agree that a lot of slash fiction does other real gay people. But just as much of it doesn't. Just as there are genuinely some really horrible people who happen to be Muslims out there (just as there are of every other religion ever, plus atheists), but not all Muslims are bad and banning them from certain places would be bad.

I know that you're not a bigot. And I know that I am approaching this from a different angle than you would, but it comes down for me to this: if someone started a no Muslims allowed comm, how would you react? What if the comm was okay with you being a Muslim as long as you don't take prayer breaks? Which is the more offensive, here?

For the record, I don't particularly like slash-only comms either, but like women's-only clubs, I put up with them because trying to argue against them only leaves me covered in 'but "they" discriminate against us!' goo. Which is sticky and smells awful.

Again, it's not you, personally. You followed your nose to a solution that makes perfect sense when it's isolated from the rest of society. But it's part of an unpleasant paradigm (again, I know it's not intentional) that is doing harm to the general, overall attitude about sexuality on a platform which is generally pretty socially aware - you've seen a part of this kind of thing that is making you question it, and there are het-comms that take it a great deal further than the one you pointed to in your original post.

Full disclosure to anyone watching who doesn't know me: I am both bisexual and an author of gay fiction (and a bit of a gay rights activist, in all honesty, so I do have a horse in this race, too, as it were).

(This is totally a blog post and with your permission, I would like to discuss this on my author blog [on your terms, naturally])

P.S. Don't mind the hysterical icon, I just haven't had a chance to dust it off lately.

The problem I see is that it's really hard to separate fictional characters as not relevant to real social issues.

I completely agree with you here, and I would never suggest that because something is fictional, it's not relevant to real social issues. I just have a distinction built up in my head between 'gay fiction' and 'slash fiction' as a genre. I have my own personal definitions for each, but I realize they aren't shared by everyone. (Anyone?) I bring it up only as a non-homophobic reason to dislike/want to exclude slash fiction. (Does it justify the exclusion? I'm starting to think not.)

I know that you're not a bigot.

And I know that your disagreeing with me and criticizing my arguments does not mean you think I am. So: no worries there!

I don't think the comparison between slash fiction and Muslim people is a fair one: prejudging a type of fanfiction is not analagous to prejudging people, for any reason. If it were really popular for people who weren't Muslim, and possibly had very little experience with real Muslims, to write fiction about being Muslim in a way that often fetishized Muslim culture: wouldn't you have objections and be tempted to avoid that genre?

Of course, you would argue: what about the stories that were written by Muslims? Or the ones that were written by non-Muslims in a way that was respectful and fairly true to the authentic experience? Is it right to exclude everything just because a lot of it gets it wrong?

No, I don't really think so. Because I do see your larger point: that people will transport (real or perceived) attitudes from one area of life to another.

I am not (philosophically) opposed to slash-only, het-only, gen-only, trans-only, kink-only, poly-only or ANY-only archives. People like what they like, and it is possible to dislike reading about something without being prejudiced toward that thing in your real life.

However, I do think I am taking a stance that is far too philosophical. (I do that a lot. I'm a very logical person and completely able to compartmentalize my feelings about different issues. I forget that most people don't do that.) Even operating under the best of intentions, a culture of exclusion does exist, and to ignore that and the way it would color perceptions of a het-only comm is naive at best. (I need to remind myself more often that the shades of nuance I perceive in my head aren't visible to onlookers.)

(This is totally a blog post and with your permission, I would like to discuss this on my author blog [on your terms, naturally])

You don't need my permission to make a blog post! Blog away. :D (What sort of terms do I get to set? Can I demand that you discuss the issue in blank verse?)

Based on the snippet you've copy-pasta'd, it looks to me like this community is less anti-gay and more anti-porn. I mean they specifically ban m/f along with m/m and f/f. It seems like the admins are twelve-year-old girls looking for safe, PG-rated genfic, only they've never heard/don't understand the term 'genfic' and are using slash as a blanket term for all possible sexual relationship combos. I could be wrong, but that does seem to be how they're presenting themselves. I would say talk to them about it before stamping them with a label that they might not deserve.

It's not that I'm interested in stamping them with a label: they don't have to be malicious or intentionally offensive to still have created a bigoted and problematic archive. I am more than willing to believe they're just young and naive! That doesn't change the fact that they're sending across the wrong message. (Which it's becoming clear to me they are, to a rather significant portion of people.)

You're right, that's definitely problematic, and worth diiscussing with/pointing out to them.

I think calling it Non-Slashers Unite sends a really wrong signal. I can kind of see their reasoning behind the comm as it can sometimes be a bit hard to find het and gen stories within some fandoms as the slash can drown them out but that's what specific gen or ship communities are for surely? For me it's about the couple rather than the sex they are, there's some couples I like to read about and others I don't.

I just find it really odd to define yourself by what you are not, maybe they just don't realise the implications of that so maybe give them the benefit of the doubt and ask. I wouldn't say that a comm that only includes het stories is homophobic in itself, some people just aren't interested in reading same sex relationship stories and there's nothing wrong with that, we don't all have the same interests it's what makes the world interesting. But I do have a problem with a comm set up to be anti something, they've made a wrong step there, hopefully in naivety not homophobia.

I would say to withdraw your fics from the comm, I really don't like the idea someone could attribute something like that to you when you had no control over your fics being there!

For me it's about the couple rather than the sex they are, there's some couples I like to read about and others I don't.

That's definitely true for me, too! The problem in the Sherlock fandom is that basically every m/f couple is a rare pair, and there's just not enough fic to create any pairing-specific archives. If I go to a het-focused comm, I'll definitely be looking for a specific pair and not just "any old couple": the het-focus just narrows the field of fics I have to search through.

I definitely think that defining themselves as "Not-Slash" sends a bigger statement than if they defined themselves by what they do include. For that reason, I'm definitely requesting the removal of my fics!

It doesn't seem there's much I can say that hasn't already been said: the comm seems to have been intended as a pg-rated haven, and the term "slash" misused. I'd ask to be sure. Perhaps the founders should just be informed of the image they're projecting, and that might be enough to make them think. You may wish to get a response before requesting that they withdraw your fic, and request that they start asking authors before adding fics to their community. Perhaps they'll surprise you with innocent intentions.

While I'm willing to forgive them their intentions, I've pretty much decided this is something I don't want to be a part of! Thanks for your input.

:(

It's possible that they're just not that savvy and really don't have any issues with slash pairings, but that's a stretch. And if they don't mean for it to be homophobic, they're probably interested in knowing that it does come off that way.

Mostly-why don't they just refer to themselves as gen lovers? Why single out slash instead of het? Except they're not against all het, just explicit het-which is already setting a double standard.

Also, they archived your fic without telling you? I'm not really familiar with fanfiction.net or its ways (maybe that's a common and acceptable thing to do there), but that still seems really, really weird to me.

Except they're not against all het, just explicit het-which is already setting a double standard.

Exactly! I don't like the attitude that m/m sex is automatically more explicit than m/f sex. (I even see this attitude coming from the slashers themselves--the whole "LOL, het is so vanilla!" as if gay men can't have ordinary, everyday sex.)

And yes, it is considered common and acceptable to place stories into comms without notifying the authors on ff.net. Several of my stories have ended up in archives--just none with such problematic intentions. :P

Exactly! I don't like the attitude that m/m sex is automatically more explicit than m/f sex. (I even see this attitude coming from the slashers themselves--the whole "LOL, het is so vanilla!" as if gay men can't have ordinary, everyday sex.)

Oh, ew-I haven't heard that recently, which I'm really thankful for.

I really do have a problem with that coming from slashers, almost even more than coming from non-slashers. It's okay to have a kink for male/male couplings (it's also okay to have it not be your thing personally!). It's not okay to imply that gay sex in and of itself is more 'naughty' or 'wrong' than heterosexual sex. Considering that they're then fetishizing gay pairings, it makes me feel really uncomfortable.

Also, it seems to be implying that no het pairings could ever be kinky, which is just incorrect!

I answered your poll, but I would like to add to my answers :)

First though, as with ppl who "warn" for slash, it's not always overtly homophobic on their part. Sometimes they just don't realize that it is offensive, but once that is pointed out they are contrite and will change it.

From the comm's description, it looks like they are just not interested in any explicit sexual material, and I wonder if perhaps it's not more of a "GEN" comm, rather than just non-slash. Or does it allow "HET" relationship stories?

Also, "prolific language" ...that confused me, yeah. I think that word does not mean what they think it means.

And to your poll questions:

1. I answered "I don't think so." but only in the sense of it being intentional. It's possible to be bigoted and offensive without meaning to, and sometimes when that's pointed out it's possible to change that attitude. So, you know, pointing how this could be "misconstrued" to the mods might go a ways in fixing it.

2. I answered "Yeah, you probably should." only b/c it's clear you are uncomfortable with it, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up. The fact that they went ahead and added it (is it just a link to your story or is it actually IN their archive?) without asking first seems pretty rude to me. I'd talk with the admins about your concerns first, though.

3. Obviously, I think you should contact them. Find out what they consider "slash" firstly. Are they defining it as only m/m pairings? All same-sex pairings? Or any non-canon pairings? Are the stories there mostly casefic, and not pairing (of ANY kind) fic, as in focused on plot not relationships? So, should it be labeled a "Gen" community?

I do think that fandom is a place for everyone, to experience however they want and be able to find whatever they enjoy (and avoid the things they don't). Recent experiences have taught me that not everyone feels this way. That some ppl feel the need to force their own opinions or project their own issues onto everyone else.

Is it possible that this NSU is homophobic (whether intentionally or not)? Yes, absolutely. But I think they should be able to create their own space for the things they like and govern it however they choose. You have the choice to not be a part of it.

I don't know specifically if they allow het stories that aren't explicit. (You'd be hard-pressed to find any in the Sherlock fandom, anyway!) But their wording is such that they ban all slash, regardless of rating, and any type of story that contains explicit sex. That's definitely a problem.

So, should it be labeled a "Gen" community?

Most likely! Though I don't even know what to call that "Sherlock and John become the parents of twins after Sherlock drunkenly knocks up a stranger" fic...

I think they should be able to create their own space for the things they like and govern it however they choose.

I agree with you there: they can do what they like. But I don't think that excludes them from accountability. If they are intentionally excluding slash on the basis that it's icky and wrong, I think people have a right to be angry about it.

"Sherlock and John become the parents of twins after Sherlock drunkenly knocks up a stranger" fic - i... don't know how to respond to that o_O

People absolutely have the right to be upset. But getting upset about things in fandom (and life in general) never solves anything. Talking to them and explaining why this could be perceived a certain way, and giving them the benefit of the doubt and a chance to rectify it is the best thing I can think of.

Oh definitely: when I wrote the maintainer a PM asking my stories to be removed (I discovered a third story she'd archived!) I did my best to be polite and not make assumptions about her intentions. I explained why I found it problematic and want my stories removed, and didn't make any demands about any other actions she should take.

I don't agree with her, but there's no cause to be mean!

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